|  | Topic : something to ponder regarding tunes |  |
| | | daz | | Zeus |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 14 Jun 2012 - 00:00 Post title : something to ponder regarding tunes | | | I never thought of this till now, but it makes perfect sense. What if you have your bike dyno'd to try and get the best power from your setup and your valves at the time of the dyno are significantly out of adjustment? I'm not saying dangerously, but enough to make the bike run notably less than optimal. Wouldn't it stand to reason that after it had been dyno'd and the bike was running this new performance tune that if you then had the valves adjusted the tune would no longer boost performance as much, possibly even less than it would with the standard tune, which of course was made with a bike under optimal running specs at the factory? This is what i think i may have experienced.
Dizze, could your WITH cat tune have been done with the valves out of adjustment? And maybe this could even be why a performance tune doesn't always work as well in every bike of the same setup? The reason i ask is this. The following timeline took place recently.
1-ran dizze's tune after running for months with the 20310 stock tune and for a week i was real happy with it and felt the bike was considerably stronger, especially in the midrange.
2-took the bike in for valve adjustment and put the stock 20310 tune back in so mickey wouldn't give me shit about using a custom tune
3-on the way home i was quite impressed with the way it ran but i figured as good as it is now it should kill with dizze's tune
4-next day put dizze's tune in and was surprised to find the bike had been running considerably better in many ways with the stock tune since the valves were done
5-swapped tunes over several days a good 5 or 6 times and it always gave the same results.....stock tune was smoother, better power especially at freeways speeds, more responsive throttle, and better exhaust note. Dizze's tune even seemed to have a bit of hesitation which i never noticed before the valves were done.
Anyways, going back and fourth A/B testing them like that make it very clear that the stock tune runs better in every way now, whereas before there was no mistake that as far as midrange power at least it was obviously stronger with dizze's tune. I assure you that seat of the pants is unmistakable in this case. So the only thing i can think of that could account for the fact dizze's tune ran the best B4 valves and the stock tune was betterafter is that when dizze's bike was dyno'd his valves were not at all optimal. My bike runs better right now than it ever has. I assume thats because when i got the 1700 kit it took some time to break in and by the time it loosened up the valves has gone well out due to initial break in. So after this valve adjustment it is the first time the bike has been well broken in and with valves adjusted correctly. I've been looking into the effect of valves being in and out of adjustment since i started that post about it and learned that it can be a huge change. It was for my bird. But back on topic, Dizze, how many miles did you have when that dyno was done and had the valves been adjusted recently before that or not? This really has me thinking that got to be it, and if so then it would make sense to consider only dyno tuning when your valves are well within specs. Thoughts?
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | mjgt | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 16/09/2011 | | Posts | : | 2,201 | | Location | : | North Somerset, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 15 Jun 2012 - 16:59 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: daz) | | | A bike mechanic and part time racer tells me you are correct, the dyno run will only give maximum potential if all other parameters are well within spec as it should be the final part of the tune up process as it needs the valves, timeing, spark plugs, injectors to all work as they should at the time they should, which again does make sense.
| Mick . . .  Keep the rubber side down!!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 15 Jun 2012 - 19:15 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: mjgt) | | | The only drag is the bike has been running so sweet since the adjustment, now i fear i will have to pay a fortune to keep it in this form ! If i feel it seems less responsive in 2000 miles i'm going to be wondering if thats all i get for my $370 and will i have to spend that much several times a year to keep it like this. I've never been quite as happy with this bike as i am since i did this. I remember the old twins with the tappet type valves and you could pop a cap nut off and adjust each one in a minute without taking a thing off the bike. Wouldn't that be sweet !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | edbob | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 15 Jun 2012 - 19:20 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: mjgt) | | | Dizze's tune makes my bike undeniably faster and smoother in every way than the proper TOR tune, without any of the side effects you have listed. Both with cat and no-cat tunes were downloaded and utilized at around 1500 and then 1700 miles respectively. There is little chance my valves were out of spec at that hardly broken in mileage. If I were you, I would re-check your pipe setup and your tune setup. Pure speculation here, but the most likely culprit is you have the O2 sensor or the SAI box active when they should or should not be - that will make a profound difference in popping/surging. Possibly, you may also have the wrong Dizze tune (there are a couple of versions)- maybe you have a japanese ECU? Meanwhile this will remain a profound mystery...
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 15 Jun 2012 - 19:56 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: edbob) | | | No mistake....i have the tunes properly labeled in a folder and theres no mistaking what tunes i was/am using, and the 02 sensors are off on the dizze tune. Also, i never mentioned popping....I get none at all with either tune. The SAI is checked in bother tunes also.
But see, heres the thing.....as i said i ran Dizze's tune for a week before i got them adjusted and the bike ran undeniably stronger just as you said. After valves it did not. It now runs undeniably better with the stock 20310 tune. And also as i said, i didn't just try it and come to a conclusion, i ran it with each going back and fourth a good 5-6 times. It was again as your own words, undeniable. I don't know how you can explain that with valve adjustment being the only difference. Read Mick's post above.
By the way, while the Dizze tune DID run stronger before this, only in the mid-range really, and some things were the same as now....it's always sounded different as far as exhaust note and engine noise and had more vibes at low RPM. I seemed to hear more engine noise with it then and now, and the exhaust note was always different then and now. None of that changed, only the power. With the stock tune everything changed after valves.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 15 Jun 2012 - 20:03 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 15 Jun 2012 - 20:06 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: daz) | | | Well, this is interesting. I mentioned this at RAT and someone replied as follows...
| Dazco That is good advice and I agree with your mechanic. When I build a motor there is no way I would let anything other than a hydrolic valve set up go past 3000 miles without at least schecking the clearances.Most Valves have a habit of tightening up during break in and in most cases I do have to adjust them for optimum performance just a few thousand in |
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So it could well be your valves WERE substantially less than optimal if he is correct. My mechanic Mickey told me to come back and get them adjusted just a couple thou after the BB kit. I thought he was just trying to fatten his wallet but maybe not, eh?
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 15 Jun 2012 - 20:08 |
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| | | edbob | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Jun 2012 - 03:41 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: daz) | | | Yikes! food for thought... Apologies for imagining you were talking about popping, I must have been thinking of a different post or my own hardships with Tuneecu - it was trial and error for me for a bit. Anywho, I promise that after my valves are done in about 2-3 months, I'll try the same thing with the tunes and report back on this. I may even get them checked sooner from what you are saying.
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Jun 2012 - 04:20 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: edbob) | | |
edbob wrote:
Yikes! food for thought... Apologies for imagining you were talking about popping, I must have been thinking of a different post or my own hardships with Tuneecu - it was trial and error for me for a bit. Anywho, I promise that after my valves are done in about 2-3 months, I'll try the same thing with the tunes and report back on this. I may even get them checked sooner from what you are saying. |
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Well, yeah, regardless of the tune thing I'd be interested in what you feel before and after valve adjustment. I swear I'm even more aware of how great it's running now than i was right after they were done, as tho it's getting better ! (i realize thats not possible, just saying it feels like it) I've never been this happy with the bike. I had no idea valves could make any notable difference unless they were horribly out of whack, and i never hear anyone even mentioning having had thiers done and noticing any difference. But once i mentioned this i have has several people tell me yes, valves can make a huge difference. I wouldn't call any one of the several improvements by themselves huge, but I feel the overall vibe is. Feels like a overall better Tbird, and for the first time in a long time i just wanna ride it all the time like when i first got it. I love that feeling ! But lets remember...if the bike's valves aren't very mal-adjusted you aren't going to notice as much as i did if anything at all. much.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | mjgt | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 16/09/2011 | | Posts | : | 2,201 | | Location | : | North Somerset, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 16 Jun 2012 - 07:57 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: daz) | | | you must also remember the balance of each cylinder will have an effect. If both cylinders are working at optimum you will get the most outof the engine, if not one will be pulling the other down, not the best situation. Fuel injection is better at adapting to this situation and can run each cylinder differently.
If any of you can remember the hondas of the 70's, they used a hyvo chain as the primary without any tensioner system. When the bike went out of balance the engine not only sounded rough but the clutch seemed to make a lot of noise and a lot of people used to re-shim the clutch basket to reduce this noise. All that was happening was the chain was flpping around due to the carbs being out of balance, this made itself apparent in the clutch housing so most thought it was a clutch problem. All that was needed was a carb rebalance and all was sweet again. Maybe this is also having an effect, cos if one in four can cause problems then one in two definatly will.
| Mick . . . Keep the rubber side down!!
| | Post edited by mjgt on 16 Jun 2012 - 13:29 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,686 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Jun 2012 - 13:27 Post title : Re: something to ponder regarding tunes (Re: mjgt) | | | He didn't do anything but valves tho. In fact, he even asked "thats all you ant to do, valves?". Then he started mentioning all these ECU based settings i assume which are not in tuneECU, at least some of them. Maybe things the triumph tool sets, i dunno. Has me wondering now if i should have, but once again i figured he was just trying to jack the bill up. I DO know my throttle bodies are balanced, or at least they were last time i had a gander while in tuneECU.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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